Author Topic: Elmar 3.5 out of focus** Update* Driving me crazy ! (Read 4970 times)

sapata · « **on:** August 06, 2010, 01:22:23 AM »

Something strange it's happening with my Leica and I'm a bit concerned...

The last two rolls I processed I noticed that most of the pictures are sharp on the left hand side and towards the right it appears to be out of focus

, I doubt it's depth field. I can't remember doing anything diferently apart from cleaning the lens with a proper lens fluid. The lens has no marks, some very small dust inside but nothing really noticeable. I shot 3 rolls and the first seems to be fine...

Here are some of the examples, I know it's dificult to see due the size of the pictures but if you look closely you'll definitely notice...

Thanks !

LT · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2010, 07:30:26 AM »

I'm sure much more knowledgable persons will chime in ... But, are you sure it's a lens problem and not a film tension problem? If it's not being held uniformly taut then you may find a softening happening.

gregor · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2010, 02:44:16 PM »

I would venture to say it's neither lens or film tension, but the rangefinder is off. when I had mine and was offloading it that was one question almost everyone had - the status of the rangefinder. Unknown to me - in the M2 & M3 models at least, Leica used a glue that had a lifespan of 40 or so years depending on storage conditions, usage, etc.

LT · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2010, 03:06:36 PM »

if the rangefinder had become misaligned, the focus would be out uniformly across the whole field, not on only one side of the image.

Pete_R · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2010, 06:26:16 PM »

Why do suspect the lens? Do you have other lenses?

I would be with Leon and suspect film flatness.

sapata · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2010, 07:35:14 PM »

So you guys could notice as well correct ? I'm not getting crazy...

Quote from: leon taylor on August 06, 2010, 07:30:26 AM

I'm sure much more knowledgable persons will chime in ... But, are you sure it's a lens problem and not a film tension problem? If it's not being held uniformly taut then you may find a softening happening.

That's well remembered... totally forgot about that. The lens was the first thing that came out in my mind.
I also agree if was the rangerfinder the whole frame would be out of focus...

Just put a dummy film inside to try, open the shutter on B and checked, the film is very tight. My big concern now is if the actually pressure plate it's not well aligned ?? You guys won't believe that yesterday was last day of the 6 months warranty...

LT · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2010, 08:31:56 PM »

Actually, I can't see the problem based on these lo-res images, but that doesn't mean it's not there

)

Pete_R · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2010, 09:00:05 PM »

Quote from: sapata on August 06, 2010, 07:35:14 PM

So you guys could notice as well correct ? I'm not getting crazy...

The first one looks soft on the right hand side but the others look OK to me. But as you have the originals to look at I'm happy to believe you.

I was thinking about the pressure plate too. No experience of Leicas though.

sapata · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2010, 09:13:45 PM »

Quote from: leon taylor on August 06, 2010, 08:31:56 PM

Actually, I can't see the problem based on these lo-res images, but that doesn't mean it's not there )

Quote from: Peter R on August 06, 2010, 09:00:05 PM

Quote from: sapata on August 06, 2010, 07:35:14 PM
So you guys could notice as well correct ? I'm not getting crazy...

The first one looks soft on the right hand side but the others look OK to me. But as you have the originals to look at I'm happy to believe you.

I was thinking about the pressure plate too. No experience of Leicas though.

The first picture is the best out of them to see, the bottom left window is way sharper than the right, on the gate picture the bricks on the left are also sharper, of course it's easier for me to check with larger samples.

Just email the store and exdplained the problem, hopefully the'll understand that it's one day out of the warranty and they might open an exception to me... fingers crossed.

Francois · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2010, 10:16:38 PM »

Quote from: sapata on August 06, 2010, 07:35:14 PM

You guys won't believe that yesterday was last day of the 6 months warranty...

I don't know about British laws but here, it says that a product should perform as expected in relation to the price paid. And that assumes that warranties are somewhat more "elastic" than the date it says on the slip. So if you buy a high-end product and can prove it didn't perform as said, even if the warranty is expired, the company has to repair or replace it free of charge...

So an expensive Leica lens should work just fine no matter what.

sapata · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2010, 10:19:52 PM »

Thanks Francois...

I'm not sure about the law here in Uk, but I sent an email to the store and let's see what they have to say.

Phil Bebbington · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2010, 07:29:20 AM »

I'm sure once out of the warranty you really have to rely on the good will of the company involved. As we all know there are those that will bend over backwards to help the customer, but, unfortunately there are those that really do go by the date of purchase - one would hope that they could see their way around to help in your situation, Sapata.

sapata · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2010, 06:44:24 PM »

Quote from: Phil Bebbington on August 07, 2010, 07:29:20 AM

I'm sure once out of the warranty you really have to rely on the good will of the company involved. As we all know there are those that will bend over backwards to help the customer, but, unfortunately there are those that really do go by the date of purchase - one would hope that they could see their way around to help in your situation, Sapata.

Just got the email back from the store and there's good news ! They told me to take the camera back to them so they can have a look... I'll be taking the camera on monday

Thanks guys !

sapata · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2010, 11:37:12 PM »

Right... the person at the store asked me to bring some pictures along showing the problem. I've decided to re scan some pictures just to make sure that it's not a scanning mistake. As some of the images were shot more than once I decide to scan them as well to compare. I have to say that this thing is driving me crazy ! I'm sorry if I'm bothering you guys with this...I just want to make sure that I have a reason to take the camera back and I'm not just being picky or not using the camera properly...

Anyways... few extra pictures from the latest scan.

"untitled17" is sharp on the left and blurry on the right (look at the 2 signs on the wall "2WE" and "No parking")
"untitled19" blurry on the left and sharp on the right ?? Am I missing anything here ? Is there a different approach when taking pictures using a rangerfinder/Leica or the camera really has a problem? Again I'm sorry for bothering you guys with this...

Phil Bebbington · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2010, 08:53:21 AM »

Well, it seems pretty clear to me. As they have said they are happy to take a look at it I would just get it back there. If they come up with something that you, us haven't thought of then great. At the end of the day you just want the camera 100% - here's hoping they resolve it or give you your money back.

Keep us informed.

Pete_R · « **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2010, 09:48:20 AM »

Quote from: sapata on August 07, 2010, 11:37:12 PM

"untitled17" is sharp on the left and blurry on the right
"untitled19" blurry on the right and sharp on the left ??

What you've said is that they are both the same. Is that what you meant to say?

To me, they are different. 17 is sharp on the left, 19 is sharp on the right. But on small images like this it's difficult to be sure.

I think the camera needs to be put on an optical bench to test it. Not sure the dealer would be able to do that so don't know what they will do. But you should get them to look at it.

FWIW. Leica mount cameras usually have the lens mount adjusted by inserting shims between the mount and the body so that the lens mount is the precise distance required from the film plane. The four fixing screws may not all have the same size shims fitted, especially on early Leicas as the body castings weren't accurate and each camera had to be individually shimmed to get the lens mount parallel to the film and the correct distance away. So, if your camera has ever been dismantled then it's possible the shims weren't put back correctly and this would cause the lens focal plane to be misaligned with the film plane.

Like I said, I don't know how the dealer would check for this. If they can't/won't help. I suggest sending the camera to Malcolm Taylor. If anyone can sort it out, I'm sure he will.

sapata · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2010, 10:00:25 AM »

Quote from: Peter R on August 08, 2010, 09:48:20 AM

Quote from: sapata on August 07, 2010, 11:37:12 PM
"untitled17" is sharp on the left and blurry on the right
"untitled19" blurry on the right and sharp on the left ??

What you've said is that they are both the same. Is that what you meant to say?

To me, they are different. 17 is sharp on the left, 19 is sharp on the right. But on small images like this it's difficult to be sure.

I think the camera needs to be put on an optical bench to test it. Not sure the dealer would be able to do that so don't know what they will do. But you should get them to look at it.

FWIW. Leica mount cameras usually have the lens mount adjusted by inserting shims between the mount and the body so that the lens mount is the precise distance required from the film plane. The four fixing screws may not all have the same size shims fitted, especially on early Leicas as the body castings weren't accurate and each camera had to be individually shimmed to get the lens mount parallel to the film and the correct distance away. So, if your camera has ever been dismantled then it's possible the shims weren't put back correctly and this would cause the lens focal plane to be misaligned with the film plane.

Like I said, I don't know how the dealer would check for this. If they can't/won't help. I suggest sending the camera to Malcolm Taylor. If anyone can sort it out, I'm sure he will.

You're right Peter... I meant just what you said:17 sharp on the left and 19 sharp on the right, I told you this is driving me nuts

I'll change it now...

I appreciate all you help and feel more relieved in a way. I'll take the camera tomorrow and I'll see what happens.

vicky slater · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2010, 10:35:01 PM »

I'm having the same kinda thing with the hassy...the whole roll was like this (A24 back) same with the A12 too.
I'll try and put a couple of rolls through on both this week, paying special attention to focus, but i'm not optomistic....any ideas?

vicky slater · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2010, 10:35:49 PM »

Obviously that hasn't been colour corrected or cleaned up :)

Phil Bebbington · « **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2010, 10:48:38 PM »

Vicky, I'm back on the 18th. If you wanna borrow my 500cm and lens to try and eliminate things just drop me a line. Having a camera, lens and back that you know is okay might help isolate the problem.

vicky slater · « **Reply #20 on:** August 08, 2010, 11:16:29 PM »

Aw, thanks, Phil, I'll try this week with various focussing finders and get my eyes checked too first, but if I need to then I appreciate the offer.

LT · « **Reply #21 on:** August 09, 2010, 07:43:04 AM »

Vicky, you haven't done anything that might have dislodged or moved the focusing screen have you? That could be the issue here.

Francois · « **Reply #22 on:** August 09, 2010, 03:39:49 PM »

These can be a b**** to diagnose. The simplest way is to check against a piece of groundglass at the film plane.

sapata · « **Reply #23 on:** August 09, 2010, 07:00:22 PM »

Quote from: Francois on August 09, 2010, 03:39:49 PM

These can be a b**** to diagnose. The simplest way is to check against a piece of groundglass at the film plane.

I might be comparing a Ferrari against a Lada here... but I had my Lubitel misaligned once and I could fix it with a piece of tracing paper placed where the film stays, switched off the room's light and point the camera to a small source of light, in my case a lamp table. I then mesured the distance between the lamp and the film plane and compared with the lens' distance marks.

vicky slater · « **Reply #24 on:** August 09, 2010, 07:08:09 PM »

sapata, i'm not clever enough for that.

Anyway, I just took a roll today after re-fitting the screen, some hit it, most didn't, which is a shame because i had a new young man sit and they would have been lovely (i still like them but....).
Hoping to go to see Sally Mann exhib tomorrow but things are conspiring against it and if I do go I think I'll just take the F80...wishing I'd never sold the Yashicamat now, guess I'll have to save for a back up at some point.

(sorry if this is abit glum).

sapata · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2010, 08:27:52 PM »

Quote from: vicky slater on August 09, 2010, 07:08:09 PM

sapata, i'm not clever enough for that.

It's easy... seriously, It's like shooting with a 4x5 camera. I'm sure you can do that

Francois · « **Reply #26 on:** August 09, 2010, 10:14:36 PM »

You could also go through a collimation test, but that's a bit more complex to do (but infinitely more precise).