Author Topic: A not quite low budget rangefinder? (Read 7714 times)

Urban Hafner · « **on:** July 25, 2010, 08:29:31 AM »

So I'm a bit under-worked with the baby right now and have a bit too much time on my hand to think about cameras

That's why I'm thinking of 'restructuring' my camera collection and I'm thinking of getting a good rangefinder. However I'm not sure if there's anything in the price range I'm looking for (I have 400-500EUR).

I know there are the rangefinders with fixed lenses (like the Minolta Hi-Matic 7s or the Canonet). They are probably quite nice, but I'd like to know if there's something 'better' out there. On the other hand there are the Voigtländers (let's not mention Leica, I guess) but they seen to be too expensive ... Is there anything I'm missing here? I don't necessarily want something with a light meter (which all the cameras I mentioned have), but I wouldn't mind either

In a nutshell I don't really know much about rangefinders and I hope that some of you are interested in gear talk

Urban

LT · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2010, 09:05:38 AM »

if you're not averse to using eBay, you shoudl be able to pick up a voigtlander bessa R or Bessa R2 in your price range. I can vouch for the r2s - nice cameras - here's one http://bit.ly/bie7iV the R2 is preferable as it has the leica bayonet mount rather than the screw mount which, with adaptors, means you can use both LTM and M mount lenses,

But then of course you'll need to think about buying a lens too. You can pick up the old russian RF lenses with a LTM quite cheap.

good luck with it all - you're entering a whole new world!

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2010, 10:31:49 AM »

Thanks Leon. I've used eBay before to buy cameras so that's not a problem. I hadn't realized that the Bessas are in my price range. If I'd get one what cheap lenses would you suggest? I've heard that there might be problems with the russian lenses not being fully compatible.

Urban

LT · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2010, 02:53:56 PM »

I'm not too sure about the russian lenses ... maybe someone else can chip in?

Francois · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2010, 03:58:00 PM »

You could also go for a Leica CL or a Minolta CL... They're around 500$ for the body around here. While they have a much shorter rangefinder base than the regular Leicas (which makes focusing a bit more tedious), they still are top quality. They also have a meter built-in.

There's also the Zorkis and Feds which are cheap.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2010, 05:20:29 PM »

You have a point there Francois. Starting out with a russian RF might be a good idea. Now, finding a good and working one might be a challenge or so I've heard ...

Urban

LT · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2010, 05:35:20 PM »

... and unless you do find one that works, it ends up being a false economy

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2010, 05:46:19 PM »

Yup. So maybe I can get rid of some of my gear and spend that on a decent (in this case I mean new or at least newish) camera ... Or I go with a rangefinder with a fixed lens for now ...

Urban

DS · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:13:10 PM »

I've been using Russian RF's for a while (Zorkis & a Kiev) and various fixed lens rangefinders, This was enough to get me so thoroughly hooked on RFs that I recently got a Leica M5 for about €500 (that I couldn't really afford but I have time to shoot a lot now and won't in the near future). To me the difference in the value between the FSU / fixed lens stuff and the more expensive Leica / Voightlaender / Zeiss gear is in the finder- they are much more usable in low light because the VF/RF is brighter and more contrasty and offer a slightly more pleasant user experience. I've had the M5 for about 3 weeks and so far have put 10 rolls through it- It is a joy to use and shoot with even though it's the ugly Leica the snobs love to hate (which makes me like it- I'm like that).

I'm using it with the Jupiter 8 I use on Zorkis while I hunt for something better- no noticeable compatibility issues for me so far and I really like the lens. I think people on t'internet blow these things out of proportion- my understanding is as long as you are reasonably cautious about using the FSU stuff on the Leicas wide-open and very close-up you'll be fine.

(-EDIT: I was so worried about all the guff I read about FSU-Leica incompatibility from the pixel peeping, gear fondling weirdos online that I did something I'd never done before- I shot a test roll of various distance / aperture combinations- and yes- at 1m and f2 things aren't as sharp as they could be- by 1.5m or f2.8 everything's pretty much satisfactory to my taste. Given that I rarely point the camera at things that are closer than 2m that's fine by me)

As for buying Zorkis / Feds my experience is try to get one that looks like it's been used a bit- the pristine ones are more likely to be lemons when they left the factory (and thus were never shot with). The kievs are really nice cameras (cheaper lenses thasn l39 FSU stuff too) if a tad idiosyncratic and prone to needing the shutter overhauled now and then. The finder on mine is ace.

Hope this helps,

D

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:27:35 PM »

Thanks DS. I'll be thinking about it ...

Urban

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2010, 08:53:15 PM »

Much as I love a bit of Soviet retro and have indulged in many such RFs over the past 10 years, I'd say that if you're thinking of heading into low-cost RF territory then you HAVE to check out the Canonet range, the Yashica Electro range (35 GSN and 35 GTN are the ones I'd swear by)...and finally the Yashica Lynx 14; a camera I've never owned, but which I have firmly in my sights. They're currently going on ebvilBay for more than £80, so I may have to increase my price range, but still....those Yashicas are just plain amazing and can be snapped up at very cheap prices.

A selection of my Yashica GSN Electro snaps: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=yashica&w=73515369%40N00

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2010, 09:06:06 PM »

Thanks Ed. I'm eying several Canonets, Minolta Hi-Matic 7s II, and Olympus 35 RDs on eBay. I've also had a look at the Yashica Electro 35, but it seems rather big to me. However, I'm not sure how the others compare. Maybe they are at that size, too?

Urban

Francois · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2010, 10:10:31 PM »

If you opt for a Yashica Lynx, pay special attention to the aperture blades. The blade pivots are a weak point on this camera. I have one with the broken pivot which I will have to disassemble completely to remove the broken parts... not a fun job.

As for cheap as dirt, I have in the shed an Argus C33 (A.K.A. The Brick). In it's time, it was said to be the American Leica. Granted it is very manual (even the shutter cocking is manual), but it is also very robust and easy to repair (I've heard)... Ugly, bad ergonomics... but it has a rangefinder.

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2010, 10:21:00 PM »

Francois, thanks for the advice re the Lynx. I do love the idea of the f1,4, but will tread carefully w/ regards to the aperture blades. As far as the Argus goes....I've never warmed to those things, sorry. Saw tons in all of the thrift stores I hunted for cheapo cameras in during my honeymoon in the SW of the USA 8 years ago, but all I found was 15 million Argus C33s!! They must have been super popular in their day.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2010, 10:22:52 PM »

Thanks Francois. But the Lynx is certainly too big for me. I have a Fujica GW690 and I'm looking for something considerably smaller and lighter.

Urban

Mil Mascaras · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2010, 10:47:17 PM »

Quote from: urbanhafner on July 25, 2010, 09:06:06 PM

Thanks Ed. I'm eying several Canonets, Minolta Hi-Matic 7s II, and Olympus 35 RDs on eBay. I've also had a look at the Yashica Electro 35, but it seems rather big to me. However, I'm not sure how the others compare. Maybe they are at that size, too?

Urban

The Yashica is a monster compared to the cameras that you mentioned. Some people prefer it for that same reason, though.

Francois · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2010, 10:56:40 PM »

Well, the Lynx is not that big. It has a very nice viewfinder. Focus is extra smooth (smoothest of all my cameras). It has a finger rest under the lens to focus faster. The rangefinder is super bright. Nice camera.

As for the Argus, it was indeed very popular. There was even an update service for their owners! As soon as a new model came out, you could send your old camera for a feature upgrade. Techs would dismantle it and put in new parts for cheap. The only way to tell which model is which is to look at the number of available shutter speeds...

They did make millions of them. The rangefinder coupling gear is very important as without it the rangefinder is useless. The rangefinder is also separate from the finder. Lenses are removable (but the process is so clumsy... even worse than Leica Screw Mount!). On mine, focus is extra stiff... I tried oiling the outside parts to no avail. I would have to open it to really clean the inside. Also, rangefinder is none too bright and the framing finder has a lot of glare (and they're oh so small!)...

Also, stay away from the Yashica 35MF... had one and it's far from even decent!

Back to the Lynx, here's a picture of mine, A yashica Lynx-5000 with a 45mm f/1.8 lens

gregor · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2010, 12:18:11 AM »

hey urban:

send me an email off-forum. I'm offloading an M3 with a 5c 1.5 summarit to help finance a project. we should be able to work something out if you're interested.

LT · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2010, 07:10:15 PM »

Quote from: gregor on July 26, 2010, 12:18:11 AM

hey urban:

send me an email off-forum. I'm offloading an M3 with a 5c 1.5 summarit to help finance a project. we should be able to work something out if you're interested.

that sounds like a superb and generous offer.

Kiron Kid · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »

Quote from: urbanhafner on July 25, 2010, 08:29:31 AM

So I'm a bit under-worked with the baby right now and have a bit too much time on my hand to think about cameras That's why I'm thinking of 'restructuring' my camera collection and I'm thinking of getting a good rangefinder. However I'm not sure if there's anything in the price range I'm looking for (I have 400-500EUR).

I know there are the rangefinders with fixed lenses (like the Minolta Hi-Matic 7s or the Canonet). They are probably quite nice, but I'd like to know if there's something 'better' out there. On the other hand there are the Voigtländers (let's not mention Leica, I guess) but they seen to be too expensive ... Is there anything I'm missing here? I don't necessarily want something with a light meter (which all the cameras I mentioned have), but I wouldn't mind either

In a nutshell I don't really know much about rangefinders and I hope that some of you are interested in gear talk

Urban

The lens on that Minolta Hi-Matic 7sII, was a design collaboration between Minolta and Leitz. It's VERY good and sharp. It can also be found on a couple of the Konica Auto models and the Vivitar ES rig.

Kiron Kid

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2010, 07:53:42 PM »

Quote from: leon taylor on July 26, 2010, 07:10:15 PM

Quote from: gregor on July 26, 2010, 12:18:11 AM
hey urban:

send me an email off-forum. I'm offloading an M3 with a 5c 1.5 summarit to help finance a project. we should be able to work something out if you're interested.

that sounds like a superb and generous offer.

You are right of course Leon. And thanks for the offer Gregor, but I decided to start low and maybe one day upgrade to a Leica when I know that this is really the right kind of camera for me.

This makes a Yashica Electro (or a Hi-Matic 7s II) seem like a good idea. Even though the Yashica seems big, I really think that I like aperture priority better ...

Urban

mikeg · « **Reply #21 on:** July 26, 2010, 10:44:01 PM »

I used to have a Yashica Electro 35 GSN and they are nice.

The shutter is very quiet and the lens is excellent. Great in low light situations as it's f/1.7. The rangefinder patch depends on the condition of the camera. Mine was OK, usable but nowhere near as bright as my Bessa R2. I think the film ISO only went up to 800. Which was an occasional pain as I like Neopan 1600. The batteries are now impossible to find so you would have to get a converter, maybe get the voltage adjusted.

It is a big camera and quite heavy. However, all in all it's a very good choice.

Mike

Francois · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2010, 10:54:41 PM »

Quote from: mikeg on July 26, 2010, 10:44:01 PM

The batteries are now impossible to find so you would have to get a converter, maybe get the voltage adjusted.

That's the case with older cameras that relied on mercury cells. The converters are just a diode in series that is used to drop the voltage from silver cells. I have the information somewhere on my computer on the type of diode to use if it's a single or double cell setup...

The document was a lengthy complex test from Rollei so it's bound to be reliable.

Karl · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2010, 11:26:00 PM »

Contax G2 with a 45mm lens, or a G1 which would be a bit cheaper.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2010, 08:41:33 AM »

Thanks Karl, but I don't like autofocus that much. We have a digital camera in the house for that

Urban

Francois · « **Reply #25 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:25:35 PM »

If you're a bit loose cash wise, think Hasselblad Xpan.

Panoramic and normal mode which is mid roll switchable. Body manufactured by Fuji.

Pete_R · « **Reply #26 on:** July 27, 2010, 05:08:24 PM »

Quote from: mikeg on July 26, 2010, 10:44:01 PM

I used to have a Yashica Electro 35 GSN and they are nice.

The batteries are now impossible to find so you would have to get a converter, maybe get the voltage adjusted.

Not actually true. Batteries ARE available. Not the originals maybe but a near equivalent that works better than any of the batteries that need an adapter and YOU DON'T NEED AN ADAPTER. I don't know where the rumour started: probably by the people who make the adapters I guess.

Anyway, look at my page here for everything you need to know about Electro batteries.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #27 on:** July 28, 2010, 08:52:21 AM »

Thanks everybody for your input! After thinking about it for a long while I ended up with a refurbished Kiev 4AM. I guess I paid a premium for it, but at least it's going to work just fine.

Urban

Ken B: eyes, I just do eyes. · « **Reply #28 on:** July 28, 2010, 11:22:02 AM »

Peter fixed my Yashica and I love it to bits, I can totally recommend him for all your camera fixing up needs. I hope to get some results posted in the next week or 2.

DS · « **Reply #29 on:** July 28, 2010, 01:16:54 PM »

Quote from: urbanhafner on July 28, 2010, 08:52:21 AM

Thanks everybody for your input! After thinking about it for a long while I ended up with a refurbished Kiev 4AM. I guess I paid a premium for it, but at least it's going to work just fine.

Urban

Sweet. Hope you like it. Now you just need to keep your eyes peeled for a nice Jupiter 9 to go with it....

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #30 on:** July 28, 2010, 03:24:47 PM »

Quote from: DS on July 28, 2010, 01:16:54 PM

Sweet. Hope you like it. Now you just need to keep your eyes peeled for a nice Jupiter 9 to go with it....

It comes with a Helios-103 which should be enough for the beginning. Oh, and did I mention that it's black?

Urban

euge... · « **Reply #31 on:** July 28, 2010, 04:08:15 PM »

When it came to getting batteries for my yashica I used www.smallbattery.company.org.uk which can supply alkaline equivalents for mercury originals.

Skorj · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2010, 12:22:12 AM »

Some of the options above, and more, mentioned here:

Canonet QL17 Review.

Bessa Review.

Have fun regardless. Skj.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #33 on:** July 30, 2010, 05:11:19 AM »

Thanks Skorj. I did of course read those reviews. But for now the Kiev should be fine (even a refurbished one is cheaper than a QL17 on eBay).

Urban

Alan · « **Reply #34 on:** July 30, 2010, 09:21:11 AM »

Best of luck with that Urban!
you should knock out some good fun with it.

Alan

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #35 on:** July 30, 2010, 09:34:49 AM »

Thanks Alan. I can't wait ... And I hope I can keep myself from buying extra lenses until I've actually tried the camera. Very mean of you people, mentioning the Jupiter-9 lens.

Urban