Author Topic: I just picked up... (Read 842477 times)

EarlJam · « **Reply #3650 on:** November 05, 2018, 06:44:50 PM »

From my experience, you're not missing much without the motor. The EL is great if you're shooting in a studio environment on a tripod or stand, on 220 or 70mm. With 120, it made little sense. Otherwise, it was a cumbersome camera to use handheld. I find my 501CM just about ergonomically perfect. I haven't used one of the later cameras, like the 503 CW, with the winder; on paper and in pictures, that's clearly a better implementation.

Bryan · « **Reply #3651 on:** November 06, 2018, 04:10:04 AM »

So I've trying to figure out exposure with my microscope camera, it's kind of difficult. What I was doing at first was connecting my digital camera, checking exposure with that, then translating that to whatever film I use. That was a pain so I started looking for whats available and to my surprise Gossen made a microscope attachment for the Luna Pro, a light meter that I already have. It clicks onto the front of the meter then slides into the hole where the eyepiece would go. The problem that I ran into with it is not knowing the aperture it's kind of hard to calculate the exposure. The microscope has an iris on the condenser but it has no f-stops. After a some tests comparing it to my digital camera I came up with f/11 giving me correct exposure. I may have to refine that a bit but it does seem to match up closely.

cs1 · « **Reply #3652 on:** November 06, 2018, 04:17:01 AM »

That is so unbelievably geeky (read as: very very cool and appealing to my play instinct).

I'm very curious about the results.

16mman · « **Reply #3653 on:** November 07, 2018, 05:15:53 PM »

I know this is horrific blasphemy on multiple digital and film photographer levels, but I bought a Yashica Y35 on ebay

I actually really like the process of shooting with a digital camera that feels like a film camera, I just wish it was a higher quality lens and sensor. The slow digital shutter has ruined a lot of shots and the image quality isn't great, but I actually like the challenge of shooting with lo-fi cameras like this one. If they could just make an LCD-less digital camera somewhere between this piece of junk and the overpriced Leica M-D I'd be happy.

Here are some of the shots I've captured with it so far: https://www.flickr.com/photos/seanandersonmedia/albums/72157702929785534

Francois · « **Reply #3654 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:23:58 PM »

Hope you didn't pay too much for it... lots of disappointed people with this one.
I wonder if the B&W setting on yours also gives the best color?

16mman · « **Reply #3655 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:28:33 PM »

Didn't pay too much and so far the black and white images are my favorite. They are a bit blue tinted but I just correct them to true black and white when I'm editing them in post. Again, it's a crappy lo-fi digital camera, but I have an affinity for those, so...

I will say, it is a much better camera than the Digital Holga, but that's not saying much at all

Francois · « **Reply #3656 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:31:51 PM »

As long as it works...
I must say that some of my favorite digicams are also the crappiest. I have something for the video made by my Discovery Kids camcorder

Especially since I paid only 2$ for it

16mman · « **Reply #3657 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:59:21 PM »

My two favorite are the Digital Harinezumi and the Vivitar Keychain camera

I especially like how tiny and dreamy the Vivitar image are, though it's a bummer you can only download the images from the camera onto a Windows computer.

Francois · « **Reply #3658 on:** November 07, 2018, 10:25:25 PM »

I remember that the Vivitar camera also works natively in Linux using, was it Digikam control... I think so.
I'd have to test with mine (if I can find it).

Bryan · « **Reply #3659 on:** November 09, 2018, 10:38:19 PM »

A few good thrift store finds yesterday. An Agfamatic 2008 110 camera, $3.00. I have some 110 film I need to waste. Also found a Polaroid SX-70 Sonar OneStep with a giant ITT Magicflash attachment $7.00. I need fix something in the batter compartment to see if the flash works but the camera seems to be functioning good.

Agfa Agfamatic 2008 by Bryan Chernick, on Flickr

Polaroid SX-70 Sonar OneStep Land Camera With Flash by Bryan Chernick, on Flickr

cs1 · « **Reply #3660 on:** November 11, 2018, 06:04:32 PM »

I felt the sudden urge for an Olympus OM-1 or OM-2. So I found an OM-1 this weekend with a Zuiko 50mm f/1.8, a Zuiko 35mm f/2.8, a Soligor 95-210mm f/4, as well as a case for all the lenses and cam and the leather holster of a ready case for the camera. The light meter works and it looks really nice. I need to replace the light seals and also need to give the camera body the mandatory cleaning. It's an absolutely gorgeous camera. I also picked up the Zuiko 135mm f/3.5 for very little money. I'm curious how it'll perform.

John Robison · « **Reply #3661 on:** November 11, 2018, 10:58:42 PM »

When I was working at a camera store in the 70's I asked the boss if I could try out the little Agfamatic 2008 on a weekend trip. He agreed, said to grab a few rolls of film, and we could show customers the results from such a simple camera. I retrieved a used flip-flash from the waste-basket and trimmed all but the end of it. Shooting in daylight I could insert it to set shutter speed to 1/50 as the light went down.

In album sized prints (then 3.5X5inches) I thought it was quite good, especially with such simple lenses. It was nice to have some actual prints to show customers and I told them to save their used flip-flash and showed them the trick to continue shooting even on overcast and not so sunny days. We sold a lot of them.

Another great two lens telephoto 110 camera is the Kodak Tele Ektra 2. It has a 22mm f5.6 and 44mm f5.6 focusing lenses and the lenses are 3 element and very good. They can be had for $10~$15 on ebay now. Don't get the Tele Ektra 1, it has slower fixed focus lenses.

Bryan · « **Reply #3662 on:** November 11, 2018, 11:50:55 PM »

Quote from: John Robison on November 11, 2018, 10:58:42 PM

When I was working at a camera store in the 70's I asked the boss if I could try out the little Agfamatic 2008 on a weekend trip. He agreed, said to grab a few rolls of film, and we could show customers the results from such a simple camera. I retrieved a used flip-flash from the waste-basket and trimmed all but the end of it. Shooting in daylight I could insert it to set shutter speed to 1/50 as the light went down.

In album sized prints (then 3.5X5inches) I thought it was quite good, especially with such simple lenses. It was nice to have some actual prints to show customers and I told them to save their used flip-flash and showed them the trick to continue shooting even on overcast and not so sunny days. We sold a lot of them.

Another great two lens telephoto 110 camera is the Kodak Tele Ektra 2. It has a 22mm f5.6 and 44mm f5.6 focusing lenses and the lenses are 3 element and very good. They can be had for $10~$15 on ebay now. Don't get the Tele Ektra 1, it has slower fixed focus lenses.

Thanks for the information John, it seems like a well built little camera. It has a switch for sunny and cloudy conditions, from what I have read about it that switches from a 1/100 shutter speed for sunny and a 1/50 speed for cloudy. I wonder if the flash insert slows it down even more than 1/50. I'll probably just keep it on the cloudy setting since my film is expired. I do have a few flip flashes to play with.

John Robison · « **Reply #3663 on:** November 13, 2018, 04:55:31 AM »

Quote from: Bryan on November 11, 2018, 11:50:55 PM

Quote from: John Robison on November 11, 2018, 10:58:42 PM
When I was working at a camera store in the 70's I asked the boss if I could try out the little Agfamatic 2008 on a weekend trip. He agreed, said to grab a few rolls of film, and we could show customers the results from such a simple camera. I retrieved a used flip-flash from the waste-basket and trimmed all but the end of it. Shooting in daylight I could insert it to set shutter speed to 1/50 as the light went down.

In album sized prints (then 3.5X5inches) I thought it was quite good, especially with such simple lenses. It was nice to have some actual prints to show customers and I told them to save their used flip-flash and showed them the trick to continue shooting even on overcast and not so sunny days. We sold a lot of them.

Another great two lens telephoto 110 camera is the Kodak Tele Ektra 2. It has a 22mm f5.6 and 44mm f5.6 focusing lenses and the lenses are 3 element and very good. They can be had for $10~$15 on ebay now. Don't get the Tele Ektra 1, it has slower fixed focus lenses.

Thanks for the information John, it seems like a well built little camera. It has a switch for sunny and cloudy conditions, from what I have read about it that switches from a 1/100 shutter speed for sunny and a 1/50 speed for cloudy. I wonder if the flash insert slows it down even more than 1/50. I'll probably just keep it on the cloudy setting since my film is expired. I do have a few flip flashes to play with.

It's been so long ago I might be confusing the flip-flash trick with another camera. A little later I had a Kodak 110 camera I used that trick on. One other thing I like about the Agfa was how compact it was while collapsed. It just seemed to be a neat and compact fun little camera. Too bad 110 film is so expensive now. That's only one reason why, if I want to shoot subminiature now I just use Minolta 16 or Mamiya 16 cameras and buy Double-X in 100ft. rolls and load my own film. Even at the current price from Eastman of $54 delivered it's still 60+ rolls, so less than $1 per roll for B&W. Compare that to over $9 a roll with shipping for Lomography 110 and you have to buy 8 to 10 roll to amortize the shipping cost.

kentish cob · « **Reply #3664 on:** November 17, 2018, 01:28:07 PM »

1951 Crown Graphic. Bought with the proceeds of a long service award from work...
Included was a Graflex flash unit and some vintage folmer film holders (which I've sold on), half a box of FP4 and a 6x9 roll film back.

I think my initial forays are likely to be with Harman direct positive paper... and I'm giving serious consideration to selling on the 6x9 back in favour of a shen-hao 6x12 back.

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #3665 on:** November 18, 2018, 10:23:44 PM »

A 6x7 back sounds very unusual - is it an RB hack?

EarlJam · « **Reply #3666 on:** November 18, 2018, 11:07:56 PM »

. . . display shelves! We've been in our house 35 years now, and this project has been on the books for at least twenty. We completed some updates last year, along with interior paint, so that provided the catalyst to finally install some shelves over my desk and put the significant cameras from my childhood on display:

-   My grandfather’s Pathe Baby projector and camera, and my dad’s Keystone A7 16mm
-   My first cameras – Kodak Starlet, Hawkeye Double 8mm, and Konica C35
-   My film school cameras – Bolex H-16 and 155 Macrozoom Super 8
-   My dad’s Kodak Monitor 620, my grandfather’s Instamatic 500 (his last camera), and my mom’s Voigtlander 116

I had two other cameras that didn’t easily fit the shelves: a 5x7 Century Grand that was given to me in the early 70s by a former Hollywood studio photographer in exchange for some yardwork, and my dad’s Graflex Series D. My wife graciously solved the problem by offering space on top of our entertainment center.

Pretty much everything for which I can get film is operable. I’m most eager to use the Konica, my high school camera up to the point that my sister borrowed it and dropped it, lens first, while I was away at college. It just came back from repair, plus new foam and CLA. I’ll probably load it up and shoot a roll over the holidays. So, a few “old friends” and a few links to family now passed, and some stories to tell my grandchildren when we look at old photos in my archive.

zapsnaps · « **Reply #3667 on:** November 19, 2018, 08:23:24 AM »

Nice display - if only Mrs Zapsnaps was so accommodating.
The Century & Graflex look fantastic. Have you ever hand-held the Graflex? I've seen in-period photos of them being hand-held, but I'm not convinced I could do it.

kentish cob · « **Reply #3668 on:** November 19, 2018, 08:28:45 AM »

Quote from: Sandeha Lynch on November 18, 2018, 10:23:44 PM

A 6x7 back sounds very unusual - is it an RB hack?

Ooops... My mistake... it's the Graflex "23", which is 6x9... Apologies for confusion... original post amended...

EarlJam · « **Reply #3669 on:** November 19, 2018, 03:04:19 PM »

Quote from: zapsnaps on November 19, 2018, 08:23:24 AM

Nice display - if only Mrs Zapsnaps was so accommodating.
The Century & Graflex look fantastic. Have you ever hand-held the Graflex? I've seen in-period photos of them being hand-held, but I'm not convinced I could do it.

Thanks! I haven't used the Graflex, yet. I asked/nagged my dad, for years, to teach me how to use it, but he always found reasons to skirt the issue. I've come to the conclusion that the camera may have been a sore point with my mom, and he was picking his battles. A younger acquaintance at the local camera shop periodically shoots with one and has offered to walk me through operating steps.

Here's my dad with an earlier Series B camera, shortly after he returned from service in WW2. He bought the Series D a few months after my sister and I were born in 1953 (perhaps the reason my mom took issue with the camera), and used for four years, as the last negatives I have are dated 1957. My folks' neighbors told me that they would watch my dad chase us around the yard with the Graflex, trying to get us in one place long enough to make an exposure before the light changed. Once I gather up the nerve and use the camera, I'll report back.

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #3670 on:** November 19, 2018, 04:55:51 PM »

Quote from: kentish cob on November 19, 2018, 08:28:45 AM

Quote from: Sandeha Lynch on November 18, 2018, 10:23:44 PM
A 6x7 back sounds very unusual - is it an RB hack?
Ooops... My mistake... it's the Graflex "23", which is 6x9... Apologies for confusion... original post amended...

LOL - I thought there was a chance of that. An original Graflex 6x7 back could be worth a fortune as it would have to be a rare prototype!

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #3671 on:** November 19, 2018, 05:13:27 PM »

Quote from: zapsnaps on November 19, 2018, 08:23:24 AM

Nice display - if only Mrs Zapsnaps was so accommodating.
The Century & Graflex look fantastic. Have you ever hand-held the Graflex? I've seen in-period photos of them being hand-held, but I'm not convinced I could do it.

They are definitely *something* to use. I have a similar Marion Soho Reflex made by Kershaw in 1928. Smaller size, so it now has a pair of Rada film backs, one 6x9 and another 6x6 (home adaptation), and apart from the original Ross Expres 120/4 I picked up another lens or two.

IMGP7926a by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

It's tricky as it is not self-capping, so you *must* wind the mirror back down before winding on, then the dark slide, then the exposure setting, then the winding of the shutter, etc. But with a new ground glass and mirror it works like a little dream, and on a good strap it is *very* stable, both *in focus*

170506_trix_04 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

and *out of focus*.

180220_trix_12 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

I don't use it much but I do love it.

Francois · « **Reply #3672 on:** November 19, 2018, 09:28:06 PM »

What's always impressive with those is the slap of the mirror and shutter...

scouter · « **Reply #3673 on:** November 24, 2018, 05:45:34 PM »

Just bought a SINAR F 4x5 with a Schneider Multi-coated 150mm Symmar-S lens and 2 Toyo and 2 Fidelity film holders just dipping my feet into Large Format Photography
can anyone recommend any good books on the subject, my first film will be some Fomapan 100 as I have used it lots in 35mm and 120mm format.

Francois · « **Reply #3674 on:** November 24, 2018, 08:54:31 PM »

Well... there is always The Camera by Ansel...

Do you read French? There is a good one titled "La Photographie en Grand Format" by Pierre Groulx (ISBN-13: 978-2891135054)

Kai-san · « **Reply #3675 on:** November 24, 2018, 09:42:39 PM »

I've heard that "The Art of Photography" by Bruce Barnbaum is very good, I plan to buy it myself.

EarlJam · « **Reply #3676 on:** November 25, 2018, 02:32:01 PM »

The Large Format Photography Forum is an excellent source of information as well.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Kai-san · « **Reply #3677 on:** December 04, 2018, 05:48:19 PM »

....... a couple of lovely rangefinders, the KMZ Drug (pronounced "droog") with a Jupiter 8 and a Canon P with a Canon 50mm f2.8. I used to be an SLR guy, but I've come to love rangefinders; especially on town. Both of them came at a lovely price too. The Jupiter 8 had a sticky focus ring, but I opened it up and lubricated the helicoid so now it's like butter. I also opened the bottom cover on the Drug and lubricated the chain, this camera has the Leicavit type of film advance. The Canon P didn't need any TLC, even the shutter curtain was almost without a dent. So now I'm just hoping for lovely weather in the weekend.

cs1 · « **Reply #3678 on:** December 04, 2018, 06:29:08 PM »

I'm a Canon fan myself and I'm happy for you that you found such a lovely P. I've never used one but from what I've read it must be a brilliant piece of gear. Looking forward to reading about your experiences with it.

cs1 · « **Reply #3679 on:** December 04, 2018, 07:46:32 PM »

As I wrote before I started with the OM system by acquiring an Olympus OM-1 in a very nice condition. I got it with the Zuiko 35mm f/2.8 and the Zuiko 50mm f/1.8 and a Soligor telephoto lens that unfortunately is broken because it won't transmit the aperture setting to the camera (I'm going to try to repair it this week). I also got the Zuiko 135mm f/3.5 which is a very nice lens. I looked into buying a Zuiko 50mm f/1.4, however, they sold for such a high price that I simply looked for one in a bundle with a camera because they tend to be cheaper that way. And, luckily enough, I found one which I got together with an Olympus OM30, a rather peculiar Soligor Dualfocal 85+135mm f/4 which is surprisingly nice as well as some odd M42 lens which I have never heard of (Cosina 50mm f/1.9) for the price of a single 50mm f/1.4. I'm going to CLA the OM30 this week but it looks like it's in quite a good condition. I also went to a very nice photo faire in Darmstadt which I had the pleasure to visit with ManuelL. There I talked with the OM-Doktor Frank Timmann (http://om-doktor.de/) who's been servicing OM and Pen FT cameras for more than 40 years. He's a really nice guy and a source of seemingly endless information about the OM system. I got a Zuiko 35-70mm f/3.6 from him which is a fabulous lens. If you live in Germany or close to Hamburg, he surely is the guy to talk to when you have OM or Pen trouble. I also found an original lens hood for the 35/50mm Zuikos. So I'm a happy OM chap now and I'm looking forward to do some more OM shooting this winter. For my Canon FD system I got a Canon 35mm f/2 which I like quite a bit (it's an astonishingly hefty piece of glass). I attached a picture of the OM stuff.

(Sorry for the lengthy post.)

John Robison · « **Reply #3680 on:** December 06, 2018, 12:17:26 AM »

I shoot 16mm still cameras, mostly Minolta 16II's. The cameras are plentiful and cheap, film cartridges however while readily available as NOS are often more expensive than cameras. That why I jumped on a auction site BIN for a Minolta 16 Ps and two unopened rolls of color print film (expired 1994) for $17 which included shipping.
Well the package arrived today and.....SCORE, there was also a film cartridge in the camera! So, I managed to obtain 3 cartridges for $5.67 each. I'll dump the 24 year old out of date color negative film and reload with Kodak 16mm Double-X.

And hey, the 16 Ps works too and came with the 2 close up lenses and flash bracket so I might as well put a roll through it just to see how it does.

Sorry, but I'm not very tech savey and don't know how to post pictures. Maybe that should be my next project.

Kai-san · « **Reply #3681 on:** January 12, 2019, 01:31:32 PM »

...... a Nikor 70mm developing tank and reel. I've been on the outlook for one of these for almost a year, not a lot of them about. This reel will take almost 5 meters of film. Depending on format (6x6 or 6x7); that is somewhere between 60 and 70 frames.

Francois · « **Reply #3682 on:** January 12, 2019, 02:56:38 PM »

70mm reels are definitely a rare thing. Not too many photographers had the equipment to shoot it.... And even fewer labs had the equipment to process it.

Nice find. I wonder how much chemistry it takes?

Kai-san · « **Reply #3683 on:** January 12, 2019, 03:48:41 PM »

Just for you Francois, I filled it with water to check.

It takes 1.9 litre to cover an empty reel. To get the equivalent of a 120 roll you divide that by six, which is 0.3 litre. Normally I use 0.5 litre to develop a 120 roll in a Paterson tank, so this is quite economical. A bulk roll (30.5 m) of fresh 70mm Rollei Professional 400 B&W sells for 85 Euros. Converting that to 120 rolls you pay 2.8 Euros per roll. Not bad.

Bryan · « **Reply #3684 on:** January 12, 2019, 09:03:23 PM »

I have a 70mm stainless steel reel for standard 116 and 616 rolls that fits into a normal stainless steel tank. That one must have been for aerial photography.

Francois · « **Reply #3685 on:** January 12, 2019, 10:06:15 PM »

Probably.
I have a reel for 220, one of the things I notice is that when switching from a 120 reel to a 220 reel is that it takes some getting used to since they don't have the same sized spiral wire...

Kai-san · « **Reply #3686 on:** January 12, 2019, 10:18:43 PM »

Quote from: Bryan on January 12, 2019, 09:03:23 PM

I have a 70mm stainless steel reel for standard 116 and 616 rolls that fits into a normal stainless steel tank. That one must have been for aerial photography.

I have two roll film backs that takes 15ft (5 meter) cartridges. One Mamiya RB67 back that I use on a Polaroid 600SE (G-adapter), and one 70mm back for my Hasselblad 501CM. See picture of cartridges and the Watson 70mm bulk film loader below.

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #3687 on:** January 25, 2019, 11:46:06 AM »

With Brexshit day approaching I've just bought a bottle of Rodinal.

Given that the last bottle I bought maybe ten years ago still isn't empty I can probably leave half of the new one to someone in my will, but still, better to be overstocked than risk running out.

Francois · « **Reply #3688 on:** January 25, 2019, 02:47:36 PM »

Wise move. With this mess, anything and everything can happen.... But most of it doesn't look good in the short term.

cs1 · « **Reply #3689 on:** January 26, 2019, 03:21:14 PM »

I can relate to what you think, Sandeha, brexit is such a mind bogglingly bad idea. Any direction that the current situation can take is some shade of "my goodness, this is bad". We already booked the ferry and a place to stay in the Peak District for our holiday in June. I'm curious and nervous about how things are going to develop until then.

Jeff Warden · « **Reply #3690 on:** February 14, 2019, 05:09:48 PM »

Two new toys here, a 10mm extension tube and a nifty bubble level, which hopefully will help me with my perpetual listing one way or the other.

Francois · « **Reply #3691 on:** February 14, 2019, 10:09:48 PM »

That means you don't have any excuse to be horizontally challenged anymore

Kai-san · « **Reply #3692 on:** February 19, 2019, 08:08:53 PM »

........ a Polaroid Swinger model 20 from the late 60's. I plan to shoot 120 film with it; one way of doing that requires almost no modification, but you'll have to load and unload the camera in a darkroom or changing bag: https://vintagefilmhacker.wordpress.com/2018/04/12/hacks-polaroid-swinger-model-20-from-120-film/
I have to study the workings of this camera a bit closer to see if it's worth a serious modification. Light leaks are apparently an issue with these cameras and I don't fancy having to cover the camera in tape each time I go out shooting.

Francois · « **Reply #3693 on:** February 19, 2019, 10:22:36 PM »

Never thought of doing 120 with mine.
I'll have to read-up on that. Thanks!

Bryan · « **Reply #3694 on:** February 20, 2019, 04:09:10 AM »

I tried that method with a different camera, it didn’t work very well. The film didn’t feed through properly, I got all rumpled up. Maybe it will work better in that camera.

Indofunk · « **Reply #3695 on:** February 21, 2019, 01:14:51 AM »

Quote from: Francois on February 14, 2019, 10:09:48 PM

That means you don't have any excuse to be horizontally challenged anymore

Of course he does! Go to the good old fallback: blame the equipment!

"Damn spirit level must be crooked

"

Francois · « **Reply #3696 on:** February 21, 2019, 01:35:00 PM »

Or just blame the earth for not being flat

cs1 · « **Reply #3697 on:** February 21, 2019, 03:26:11 PM »

I got a little carried away: I bought five Altissa Periskops. I was originally looking for two that are identical to my own copy (as shown in the Box Camera Thread) because my kids are showing an interest in film photography and what better camera is there than a simple box. I stumbled across an offer of five Altissa Periskops including a bulb flash so I couldn't resist (it included the two boxes I was looking for). I got them for 50 € total which is a reasonable price. The boxes all need some repairs and one or two aren't in such a good shape. But all in all I'm happy with the purchase. I plan on doing some work on the boxes this weekend. Also stay tuned for a writeup on restoring an Altissa Periskop's paintjob.

The other acquisition is a Konica C35 EF3. The reason why I got one is that I already own a Konica C35 AF2 and I simply love its lens. It's a 38mm lens with 4 elements in 3 groups and it's gorgeous. The EF3, however, has a slightly wider lens (35mm f/2.

with 5 elements in 4 groups which is said to be even better than the 4 element lenses. The EF3 looks pretty, has a very simple zone focussing system and takes normal AA batteries (as does the AF2). I've loaded it with the first film and I'm looking forward to trying it out and to seeing the results. The only issue that I see at the moment is that the "flash ready" indicator light doesn't work. I'm wondering whether or not I can replace the LED (if it is one).

Francois · « **Reply #3698 on:** February 21, 2019, 10:39:10 PM »

Looking at the period when it was made, there are good chances that it uses a simple neon indicator.

Indofunk · « **Reply #3699 on:** February 22, 2019, 12:59:47 AM »

Quote from: Francois on February 21, 2019, 01:35:00 PM

Or just blame the earth for not being flat

Wait ... whaddya mean the earth's not flat?