Author Topic: Caffenol  (Read 5870 times)

Francois

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Caffenol
« on: April 01, 2019, 05:05:30 PM »
Just to keep things clean and easy to find, I decided to continue this thread
http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=9775.msg131812#msg131812
here

I've been shopping for powdered ascorbic acid locally. Unbelievably I can't find it in stock anywhere!
I did find some on the Walmart site but at 93$ a bottle... I think the price speaks for itself.

And when I look on Amazon I find it quite on the expensive side for small volumes. 227 grams for 14$ + 5$ shipping...
I'm starting to think I'll try and find some vit.C packaged in gelcaps and just split them open.

Anybody got any idea?
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 05:44:20 PM »
Anybody tried it using some effervescent vitamin C?
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 08:48:42 PM »
I suppose it should work. The caffeic acids and vitamin C are the main developing components. The soda is used to correct the pH value. If the component of the tablets that makes them "bubble" doesn't change the pH value too much you should be fine. The ingredient listing of the tablets should give you the amount of pure ascorbic acid. So you just have to scale the amount of crushed tablets so that you get the required amount of ascorbic acid in the Caffenol recipe. Does this make any sense? :) I've read that people use that kind of vitamin C without problems.

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 10:03:54 PM »
While going through the back of a cupboard I found an old out of date bottle of 500mg chewable tablets.
I'm thinking about crushing them, dilute them in water, filter out the additives like starches that are used to keep the powder together and then add the sodium carbo to that.
I know it's not how it's supposed to be done but I figure it should work the same...

Besides, it makes calculating the amount of vitamin c so easy...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

EarlJam

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2019, 10:09:33 PM »
Amazon appears to have 1 kg bags for US $22. I can't vouch for the stuff as I haven't yet made the leap to Caffenol (or even my own B+W processing, for that matter).

https://www.amazon.com/Ascorbic-Powerfully-Cardiovascular-Pressure-Friendly/dp/B01HFOJBG2/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1KTHRAR9T5RZL&keywords=ascorbic+acid+powder&qid=1554152858&s=gateway&sprefix=ascorb%2Caps%2C318&sr=8-5

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 10:53:28 PM »
I'm in Canadian dollars... There is a huge exchange rate with the US.
That would be close to 30$ CAD without shipping and possibly duties...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2019, 06:10:33 PM »
How's your Caffenol project coming along?

I developed Adox Silvermax in Caffenol-C-H (RS) last weekend. I developed it for 12m30s, however, I'll be adding a minute next time because I think that it could use that additional minute. I'm going to start using Silvermax more from now on because it works where Fomapan 100 (my standard film) doesn't work so well anymore. Silvermax has an incredible latitude. With the right developer it's said to have 14 stops of latitude. That's a lot more than Fomapan 100 has. I'd say that Adox Silvermax is to Fomapan what Kodak Portra 160 is to Kodak Ektar 100. I wanted to try Silvermax because I had really contrasty and harsh lighting conditions last weekend. So I loaded my Konica C35 EF3 with Silvermax and took it mountainbiking one day and into the ancient town of Goslar the other day. I like the results. It's cool how the shadow detail is retained though the sun was very bright (and as I said before, I probably could have added another minute to the development which would've brought out even more highlights). I haven't compared Silvermax in Caffenol to Silvermax in Silvermax Developer side by side yet but I have the subjective impression that Caffenol gives me very close results to my Silvermax Developer results. Here're three shots from the roll:

(EDIT: Sorry, the EF3's corners are a tad soft, I should've used a different camera for a real test but I needed a small camera to haul around on a bike.)


Forest track by C S


St. Petri by C S


Breites Tor by C S
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 06:14:04 PM by cs1 »

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2019, 08:51:38 PM »
Right now it's pretty much stalled by the lack of subjects and a snow storm we had this morning.
But the camera is already loaded. I kinda figured that if I'm going to use a never tested developer I might as well do it with a never tested camera!
I know, the scientific approach is a bit going out the window on this one but it should still be interesting.
I have an Olympus Infinity Twin loaded with some hand rolled Arista.EDU 400 waiting on my desk. (http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Olympus_AF-1_Twin)
Since I couldn't find affordable ascorbic acid, I'm going with blueberry flavored tablets I have. I figured that once crunched, diluted and filtered it should add a nice berry smell to the solution  ;D

We'll see how it goes.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2019, 08:16:04 AM »
Just a quick update: I've adjusted the developing times for Adox Silvermax and it seems like 14m30s ist a perfect time. Co-incidentally that's the exact same time that you need for Ilford HP5+ at box speed. Which leads me to the biggest news: yesterday I got reconciled with Ilford HP5+. I didn't like it at all at box speed in Rodinal (it's fine at EI 1600). However, I tried developing it in Caffenol-C-H (RS) for the first time yesterday and I'm baffled how good it looks and how much detail I get from it. I've posted three shots in the weekend thread: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=9796.msg132146#msg132146 And since it has the exact same time as Adox Silvermax @ EI 100 I can develop both films in a single tank which is really practical.

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2019, 02:09:02 PM »
That's good news.
I just love it when you can mix and match rolls in the same tank.

BTW hp5 can be surprising. Its a bit the British tri-x. It was common practice during the 60's to process it in pq universal, especially within the punk scene.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2019, 07:18:46 PM »
You're absolutely right, it's 100% practical. I'm currently pondering whether or not I'm going to take Fomapan 100 & 400 on my holiday to England or Silvermax & HP5+ which I can simply dunk in the same coffee mix. I still love Fomapan but the prospect of being able to process all roles the same way really makes me think. I just wish there was Silvermax in 120 format.

Regarding Ilford: I really like their emulsions. I need to get in touch with Becky to get her recipe for the T grain compatible Caffenol with which she develops her Delta. I still have some Delta 100 which I'd like to dunk in coffee at some point.

scouter

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2019, 08:54:44 PM »
this what I use for Vitamin C Powder here in the UK to develop Fomapan 100 and 400 and as you only use 16 grams each ltr it goes along way

https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/holland-barrett-pure-vitamin-c-powder-2500mg-60003160

Mike (happyforest)

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2019, 10:03:27 PM »
this what I use for Vitamin C Powder here in the UK to develop Fomapan 100 and 400 and as you only use 16 grams each ltr it goes along way

https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/holland-barrett-pure-vitamin-c-powder-2500mg-60003160

It is also in their buy one get one for a penny promotion  so £27 for just over a kilo.

Mike


Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2019, 06:26:47 PM »
OK, I just finished step one: expose a roll of Foma 400
Now I have to cook my carbonate and get everything ready...
Francois

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cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2019, 07:33:47 PM »
Goodness, I have no idea why but I'm pretty excited now to see the results. Too much suspense. ;) Keep us posted! :)

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2019, 09:11:17 PM »
I'm excited too. I'll have to find a rainy day to do this properly :)
I'm, particularly excited because this was a totally experimental thing for me. It's a camera I tried for the first time not knowing if it works properly. I used it indoors without flash using 400 ISO film that I usually rate at EI 250 when I process in HC-110. I took pictures of people without them knowing. I shot off the hip like Daido. I carried the camera with me everywhere I went.

All I know is that there should be pictures of fish, people, landscapes, scenes from the shopping center and I don't know what else on it... a very coherent series as you can see  ;D
Francois

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Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2019, 09:37:16 PM »
Finally, at last!
I just finished my very first Caffenol adventure, and what an adventure it was!

First, I didn't have any powdered Vitamin C, so I took some old blueberry flavored vitamins I had in the pharmacy that were well past their prime. I figured that it wouldn't hurt any. So I crunched 10 tablets in the mortar. At first, it smelled really nice, so I was happy. But once I put them in water to dilute out the ascorbic acid, I discovered why these are meant to be eaten and not diluted! You should have smelled that. The closest thing I could find to that smell is located somewhere in the digestive track, and let me tell you, it's not at the beginning or at the end!

Once that was properly diluted, I removed all the particles that were in the already brownish liquid. I had to filter it twice because all the starches would plug-up my filter with fine particles. Once that was done, I added the sodium carbo. Since I didn't know what kind it was but I know I've had it for a while, I just treated it as a decahydrate. The temperature of the liquid did go up by a good 10°C like expected. But the smell also went from bad to worst. Once it started cooling a bit, I added some iodized salt since I didn't have any KBr, kept stiring that definitely brown and murky liquid.

This is when I added the instant coffee. Now what I thought was a foul smelling concoction turned into a definite loose your lunch type of smell. Even with the small extractor fan I have, I stunk-up the lab pretty bad. I'm still wondering out of all the stinky stuff I've done in that room if this came before or after sulfide sepia toner! It was really nasty.

I had to filter it two times again as there was still quite a few floaters in it. Once I was done, I adjusted the volume to 300ml and got ready to develop.

On this job, for the first time in years I actually dropped the film on the ground. The reel's bearing jammed. I had a hard time locking the lid on the tank.

After all this, the developer was still at 22°C. I just said what the heck and started developing. I did a short pre-wash just in case. I did the 14 minute with a first 30 seconds of agitation and 3 inversions every minute.

The smell in the darkroom was still bad enough that I couldn't smell the acetic acid stop bath! Fixed like usual.

I just finished washing the film. It looks like there is a good fog layer on it.
All in all, it took me more than 2 hours to get the roll processed. I still can't smell anything... but at least my fingers don't smell anything anymore... at least not that I think of...
Francois

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Bryan

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2019, 09:54:45 PM »
I wonder if the blueberry pills had anything to do with the smell and the fogging.  I've never noticed the smell to be that bad with caffenol and beerenol using powdered ascorbic acid.  Beerenol just smells like stale beer, caffenol smells like stale coffee.  I know there's usually corn starch in the pills as a binder and lord knows what the blueberry flavoring is, I'm sure it has nothing to do with blueberries.  With beerenol I dissolve the sodium carbonate first, mostly to avoid a foam explosion from the ascorbic acid, but it also takes a bit longer to get it all dissolved.  It helps to add it slowly and stir a lot.  Adding it quickly can cause crystals to form that take longer to dissolve. 

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2019, 10:10:44 PM »
Oh my goodness, that sounds like an awful first experience with Caffenol. I'm so sorry that you had to experience this. :(

I agree with Bryan: if you used Fomapan the fogging is very unusual and I also suspect that the blueberry vitamin C caused the problem. If I recall correctly the ascorbic acid actually reduces the fogging so I suspect that the amount that you got after the extraction from the blueberry tablets was simply too little. Also, Caffenol doesn't smell particularly good (the washing soda and the instant coffee don't go very well together) but it's far from being nauseating. I guess that the (most likely) artificial blueberry aroma didn't help at all. ;)

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2019, 11:24:50 PM »
The aroma definitely didn't help.
Also the fact that I was starting from tablets definitely added a whole bunch of junk into the mix.
I did notice that the vit.C soup did turn quite brown after the carbonate was added. Looked a bit like root beer, but with foam and bits floating.
I guess that the artificial flavoring and food dyes had a role to play in it. Now I think I know what Luke Skywalker smelled like after being shoved into that Tauntaun ;D

But still, I just did a quick scan of the negs and it doesn't look half bad considering how they were processed. All I know is that I would mix it all outside if I were to redo it, something I probably strangely will do. I find it a bit amazing to see that it actually worked. Not as I expected but still it worked.

When I look at the histogram for the pictures, I find that contrast is fairly high. This is really surprising in a sense. The scanner I used is hard coded to record properly developed film, so I had to play with the settings to get the image looking decent. But since it only scans at 24 bit, this makes a bunch of holes in the histogram. Nothing a better scan couldn't fix.

I'm posting a few of those cheap scans in the weekend thread.
Francois

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Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2019, 05:16:13 PM »
I think I figured out what could have gone wrong.

-the food dye and flavoring increase the base fog level.
-since the vitamins were expired, the ascorbic acid could be oxidized (I don't know if that's possible though).
-the manufacturer didn't put in the 500mg of ascorbic acid per tablet that's advertised on the label.

I did some calculations using my light table and exposure meter. I turned them both into a primitive densitometer.
I set my meter to 50 ISO and EV reading mode so I would get a single value for the measurements.
The light table rates at 10 EV.
A negative developed in HC-110 has a base fog of 8.2 EV.
A negative developed in caffenol has a base fog of 6.9 EV.

So, the normal negative has an opacity of 1.21951 while the caffenol has one of 1.449275.
This gives them respectively a density of 0.086185 and 0.16115 for the caffenol.
Considering that a density of 0.3 is a 1 stop change, it's not that bad.
Francois

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cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2019, 07:24:44 PM »
I guess that the numbers and the results that you posted are quite encouraging. Maybe you find a different source for ascorbic acid to rule out side effects by the aromas and dye. Also, the smell will be much better with pure ascorbic acid, I'm pretty sure of that. In any case, I would never have thought that the results would be so nice had I only read your report in this thread and not seen the images.

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2019, 08:10:06 PM »
The processing definitely was a nightmare in a way. But I think the images more than make up for it :)
Best of all, the negatives aren't stinky  ;D

I was surprised about one thing though. I never thought it was so oily! When I got some on my hands it felt almost like vegetable oil...
Francois

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cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2019, 08:59:47 PM »
Well, I guess it depends on the kind of coffee that you use. Coffee definitely is oily (that's the reason why you can't store Caffenol at room temperature). It'll go bad and develop mold.

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2019, 10:00:44 PM »
I just got the cheapest thing I could get. Lets just say that anybody in their right state of mind wouldn't drink that dollar store "sock juice". It's not the best smelling even before diluting. And I can guarantee that it's made from the cheapest Robusta beans available anywhere. At 1$ for 50 grams, you can't expect anything really good. But at least it's good enough for caffenol.

One of the things that amazed me is how tolerant the process is.
Francois

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Bryan

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2019, 07:53:50 AM »
I think that oily feel you got is from the Sodium Carbonate.  It’s caustic, it’s starting to dissolve your skin. 

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2019, 02:35:57 PM »
Could be. Though it didn't feel like when I burned my fingers with concentrated acetic acid.


I wonder if people would pay to get a caffenol facial?  ;D
Then again, probably not  ;D
Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2019, 03:45:55 PM »
Could be. Though it didn't feel like when I burned my fingers with concentrated acetic acid.

Back when I was a biologist, we dealt with highly concentrated "glacial" acetic acid. That stuff could strip the skin off of an alligator. In fact, if you had the misfortune to open it outside of a fume hood, you probably destroyed half your lung cells :o

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2019, 09:04:52 PM »
I know the feeling... and when you think that Kodak used to sell glacial acetic acid to make stop baths!
Granted you got a lot of mileage for your money but still, for the lifespan of regular stop, I think it was a bit overkill.

So, you were a biologist?
Francois

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Indofunk

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2019, 10:09:41 PM »
Masters in Molecular Biology from the University of Wisconsin. Worked in the plant pathology department so my expertise (was) plants, fungi, and bacteria. Haven't done anything nearly biologically related in about 20 years, but I still like to use my master's as a mic drop on any biological bar arguments ;D

astrobeck

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2019, 02:26:53 AM »
I'm no biologist or chemist, but do okay mixing up "soup' in the caffenol department and use it exclusively for developing black and white and some times by mistake Kodak Gold 200.

I've used crushed vitamin c tabs, but find Vitamin C crystals work best for me in my hard water at home.

i've also dinked around with different teas, and flower blossoms to develop paper negs and to print with.
Good results can be had developing Harman Direct positive paper too, but it seems it likes very freshly made soup and at a little bit higher temp...like around 74 degrees.

It's fun no less and cheap to make.   8)

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2019, 02:51:16 PM »
Masters in Molecular Biology from the University of Wisconsin. Worked in the plant pathology department so my expertise (was) plants, fungi, and bacteria. Haven't done anything nearly biologically related in about 20 years, but I still like to use my master's as a mic drop on any biological bar arguments ;D
I always like to hear people's surprising backstory.
I must say that things like that definitely put an end to the theories of know-it-alls  :)
Francois

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Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2019, 03:03:05 PM »
I'm no biologist or chemist, but do okay mixing up "soup' in the caffenol department and use it exclusively for developing black and white and some times by mistake Kodak Gold 200.

I've used crushed vitamin c tabs, but find Vitamin C crystals work best for me in my hard water at home.

i've also dinked around with different teas, and flower blossoms to develop paper negs and to print with.
Good results can be had developing Harman Direct positive paper too, but it seems it likes very freshly made soup and at a little bit higher temp...like around 74 degrees.

It's fun no less and cheap to make.   8)
Did the one you mixed using crushed tablets smell half as far as mine?
The tablets I used were said to be made from "natural sources".... I guess that the 7mg of "supporting botanical blend" didn't like the alcalinity of what was to come  ;D
Francois

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astrobeck

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2019, 06:27:38 PM »
It all smells so bad to me that I honestly couldn't tell you if it was worse. 

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2019, 10:26:58 PM »
In that case I guess it's normal  ;D
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Moto-uno

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2019, 06:16:21 PM »
 Just noticed this post . I live in B.C and have been able to get Ascorbic acid from our Pharmasave drug stores for cheap ( I'm Scottish :) )
The soda "SpaGuard" sodium carbonate comes from a pool supply house at $7.00 a kilogram . And the bad German instant coffee comes from
our Superstore grocer . (The sodium is anhydrous) . It's worked well with all the films I've tried and the aroma isn't all that bad to my nose . I
use a digital scale (cheap online from China) and typically use the Caffenol C-M (rsa) formula for about 11 to 12 minutes . I've been recently
experimenting the Xtolish concoction suggested by " Imagesfrugal" , and quite like it ..    Peter

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2019, 06:31:09 PM »
Hi Peter, welcome to this thread and this forum. Thanks for this info, it's highly appreciated.

François, I expect a comprehensive Beerol and Caffenol comparison essay soon. ;)

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2019, 10:08:03 PM »
Will do. These days we're having terrible weather so my photography is a bit on the backburner. I did get to shoot half a roll of color though...
Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2019, 02:24:22 AM »
 Thanks for the welcome "cs1" . In your reply #6 , the last photo looks familiar , is this called "Frenchmans Lane: ?

cs1

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2019, 07:21:19 AM »
No, it's the "Breite Straße" in Goslar, Germany. It's the view through the "Breites Tor", one of the old fortified gates of Goslar. Goslar is a really nice and old city, it's well worth a visit if you're in the vicinity. :)

jharr

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2019, 12:20:00 AM »
Over 30 posts on this thread without a photo. tsk, tsk... FLOWER FOUL!!!!

harman Direct Positive in caffenol - CL


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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2019, 02:17:29 AM »
THANK YOU for the caffenol-appropriate flower foul James! ;D

Francois

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Re: Caffenol
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2019, 09:21:13 PM »
At least it was appropriately developed in caffenol... Coffee bean plant? probably not.
Here's something funny to go with it. Not great photography but when you translate it it will put a smile on your face ;)

(it says they're hiring fruits & vegetables full time)
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.